AMAs
Hey everyone, I'm Ryan Holiday. I've worked with everyone from Tim Ferriss to Complex.com to the musician Young & Sick. I've written three books; Trust Me I'm Lying, The Obstacle is the Way, and most recently Growth Hacker Marketing (now a course with Fedora). My book on growth hacking came out of my experiences as a marketer at American Apparel. It was Andrew Chen's big article that served as a wake up call for me. The book is very much a response and a introduction to growth hacking for people who come from that background. It's been quite an experience growth hacking a book about growth hacking and I've learned a lot. I'm happy to answer questions about whatever you like--books, writing, marketing, stunts, whatever. Couple links that might help: Slideshare on a book as a MVP http://www.slideshare.net/ryanholiday/growth-hacking-a-book-minimum-viable-product-to-bestseller Big article for the Observer on how the book campaign went: http://observer.com/2014/10/disrupting-how-bestsellers-are-made-apply-startup-style-growth-hacking-to-publishing/ The Product Hunt page for the marketing course http://www.producthunt.com/posts/growth-hacker-course Me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/ryanholiday
Angelo Lirazan
Hi Ryan! Thanks for doing this AMA!
Can you share some stories about growth hacking for a larger, more established company like American Apparel
I ask because I would think that being able to execute growth strategies with a large pool of resources (such as that of a larger company versus a startup) would allow for some interesting things.
Thanks in advance! :)
Ryan Holiday
I definitely wrote GHM on my way out at American Apparel so there is less stories than I'd like. But one thing that was cool at AA is that as a vertically integrated manufacturer, it was really easy to throw up MVPs, test the market and expand from there. It's funny, unless you really knew the brand, you wouldn't know but a lot of the most famous advertisements the company has done feature products that never got made. Or even more funny, the ads never really ran anywhere. We just took a picture, mocked up the ad and threw it online. It would generate these explosive reactions, the product run would sell (or not sell) and we'd make a decision from there.
The famous Sasha Grey ads (where she doesn't have any clothes on--just socks) happened before Andrew Chen introduced me to growth hacking, but that ad cost like $1000 and ran on one blog. Same goes for the ads with Jacky, the distinguished older woman.
When you're an established company you can do these cool little experiments and get instant feedback because you have all these eyes and attention on you. It's harder to do an A/B test when you're just starting out obviously.
Angelo Lirazan
Thanks for the answer! I especially enjoyed the part about 'the most famous advertisements the company has done feature products that never got made'. HAHA
Ryan Holiday
It actually is a problem sometimes. Because customers will want stuff that it doesn't make sense to make.
Morgan Brown
It's like the scenes in a movie trailer that don't make it into the final cut.
Benji Hyam
Hey Ryan. Have read all of your books and am a big fan of all of them. Being that it's been a few years since you came out with Trust Me, I'm Lying, I'm wondering if you would go about trading up the chain in any new ways, or if the ways outlined in the book have remained pretty much the same? I'm also wondering if you have any newer examples of unconventional PR strategies.
Ryan Holiday
Totally. These two articles from earlier in Feb show some of the changes in the landscape.
http://observer.com/2015/01/exclusive-how-this-man-got-the-media-to-fall-for-shipyourenemiesglitter-stunt/
http://observer.com/2015/02/exclusive-how-this-left-wing-activist-manipulates-the-media-to-spread-his-message/
The power and influence of sites like Reddit have definitely changed things. They make it easier actually.
Benji Hyam
Thanks for sharing. Read the first one and posted it on GH. I'll have to check out the second one. Agreed on the last point about reddit- just wrote about that and how we used trading up the chain here: https://growthhackers.com/distribution-tactics-i-used-to-go-from-0-to-20000-real-quick/
Morgan Brown
Hey Ryan,
Thanks for doing this. One of the interesting things to me about everything you've written is your unique perspective on approaching problems. I was wondering if you could talk a bit about how you developed that approach, how you look at things/challenges, and any insights you can share on developing that kind of mindset.
I know it's nebulous but super interested to hear more about your thought process.
Ryan Holiday
I have to credit my mentors on this one, both alive and dead. First off, I started as an intern for Tucker Max when I was in college and he is an incredibly smart and unusual individual with a very emphatic worldview. Then I worked in Hollywood for a powerful movie producer who taught me a lot. Then I trained under Robert Greene, who taught me so much about strategy, thinking, mastering your emotions and so forth. And THEN, I worked directly under Dov Charney, who despite his flaws, is a brilliant entrepreneur.
This doesn't even get into reading and other forms of education.
For me, I think my perspective and way of thinking about problems/opportunities/whatever comes from combining and synthesizing the approaches of these similar but also radically difficult individuals. I'm a product of their experiences + my own experiences. My POV is probably compounded in its uniqueness by the fact that everyone else tends to learn and be taught in a very similar, traditional manner. If everyone goes to the same schools, for the same amount of time and studies the same things...well you end up with groupthink.
Ryan Holiday
If you're looking for practical advice here, I guess what I would say is: Seek out diverse people/companies and immerse yourself in their approach. Keep what you like and discard what you don't. Rinse, repeat.
Morgan Brown
Thanks Ryan, I really appreciate it. One of the things that I enjoy about your writing is that you reference so many different books/sources. I really like your concept of your boxes of ideas and quotes you keep from stuff you read, etc.
I think one of the hard things is taking all of that input, really synthesizing it and then using it to create your own POV, rather than just regurgitating someone else's as your own.
Separate drinking conversation altogether, but I appreciate the insights.
Ryan Holiday
Have you read Steal Like An Artist? It talks about this a lot.
Morgan Brown
I haven't will check it out.
Also really enjoyed The Obstacle is the Way. It was an accessible way to reframe approaches to challenges and was a great jumping off point for some of the classic texts you pulled from.
Ryan Holiday
Thank you sir
Yuvrajsinh Vaghela
Hi Ryan,
Thanks for doing AMA. I love your twitter account, and check it daily for the inspiration.
What are your sources for success and inspiration ?
I've checked, you've mentioned people, but is there any living being to whom I can connect, and learn from him as well.
I'm expecting people from whom you're learning on a daily basis.
Ryan Holiday
Robert Greene is one who is still alive and public. He is the best
Sean Ellis
Hey Ryan, great to have you doing an AMA. Curious if you have a specific process for figuring out effective new growth hacks? Seems some people just have a great intuitive gut about what's going to work and others have to do a ton of testing, iterating and optimizing. Do you fall into one of these camps or do you take an entirely different approach?
Ryan Holiday
I feel like you should be the one answering this question!
I think I am a little bit of column a, little bit of column b. One of my favorite books ever is Blue Ocean Strategy, which has been very influential to me. There is also a line from BH Lidell Hart about Gen Sherman, something like "along the line of least expectation, along the path of least resistance." Point being: I always look for new things people aren't expecting, but that also have the least amount of competition/hurdles.
Everette Taylor
Hey Ryan,
Thanks for doing this. What's currently in your marketing stack of tools that you use?
Ryan Holiday
The best tool is good employees. I am lucky enough now that I get to think about this stuff at a high level and I can learn on my staff/team to handle the tactical execution.
Brad Gustafson
How are biscuit and bucket? Any new funny stories to share?
Ryan Holiday
They are eating cheesy puffs outside my window right now. Someone send me a few bags in a gift bag and I would never eat that grab but the goats and chickens love it.
For anyone that cares, here are my goats: http://thoughtcatalog.com/ryan-holiday/2015/02/5-life-lessons-ive-learned-from-my-pet-goats/
Greig Cranfield
Hey Ryan. GHM was a dream find for me in Auckland airport. One of those books that almost feels like it 'finds you' at the exact moment you need it. The thing I loved about it, and everything I've read from you, has been your no preaching approach and no 'rock star complex' that a lot of the blogs and so called guru's out there seem to take. Was this intentional or is that just your general approach?
Ryan Holiday
Wow, kudos to my UK publisher then. Excited that they are pushing the book so well all the way to your part of the world.
Your remark is very kind. I don't know if everyone would agree, of course, I have my share of haters but I generally have no interest in being a marketing guru. I wrote TMIL because I was disgusted and tired and ready for something new. GHM was a total accident/iterative process whose success surprised me, quite honestly. I'm just interested in writing about stuff I find cool and working on projects that challenge me and have an impact. I generally find that if you know what you like and stick to it, you might be less *successful* but you'll be happier.
Greig Cranfield
Thanks Ryan, appreciate the reply and yep give them a pat on the back and a thanks from me. Maybe that's why then, you spoke more from a fan who's getting to research and write about something he's interested and passionate about point of view than someone who thinks they are the be all end all of their trade. Very true, I've always believed success is measured on more than just financial/commercial gain. Thanks again mate. G
Ryan Holiday
Totally. I'm very lucky and cannot believe sometimes that I get to do this for a living. I try not to come off as an expert in my writing. In fact, I generally try to write first for/to myself and then to the reader. That way we're both in it together.
Greig Cranfield
That's the answer then :) keep that approach mate, it is a style that really works. One more question if I can be greedy? I'm on my first startup (yudoo.co.nz) and growing a list of email subscribers for beta invites. When you're growing that initial group of key users, what advice would you give on how often to hit them pre-launch with surveys/emails and would you recommend a/b testing at such an early stage when you don't want to risk losing any subscribers?
Aggelos Gesoulis
Hello Ryan,
Happy to see you doing this. Read Trust Me I'm Lying and have to say I'm impressed. A few questions for you. First of all, do you think the current media status can be reversed again or is it human nature to return to "Yellow Press" in different forms? Another question is how did you make the decision to write so openly about all this. Didn't it affect you in a negative way? Was it worth it? Final question from me, is the Observer position something that covers your ambitions or are you in pursuit of a role more similar to your previous one?
Aggelos Gesoulis
Ryan?
Ryan Holiday
Calm down buddy!
I think its certainly human nature to want to gossip, sensationalize, even tear people down. The problem is when the system encourages rather than tempers these impulses. By analogy, people are naturally greedy, corrupt, selfish, even violent but representative democracy is a system that generally tempers these forces. Conversely, other systems like anarchy or totalitarianism make them worse. Same goes for online media.
What do you mean my previous role?
Aggelos Gesoulis
PR/Media at AA.
Ryan Holiday
Oh, ok. No, I'm definitely not looking to move into a full time role anywhere. What I love about the Observer is that they have a super talented staff and I can help by providing relationships, connections, advice, ideas, and marketing help. We've ended up doubling traffic in less than a year...and I don't have to live in New York.
Logan Stoneman
Hey Ryan,
Awesome to have you on here! How have you been able to bring the tenets of stoicism and philosophy into your work/thoughts as a Growth Hacker? And how can others start applying those tenets into their work?
Ryan Holiday
I mean, I put a section on MVP/iteration in the stoicism book because I think this sort of lean, ego-less approach to building businesses/companies/careers is very much in line with stoic thought. It's pared down, it's resilient, it's not presumptuous, it's scalable.
I don't want to overstate the link here, but I do think the schools of thought are complementary.
Logan Stoneman
Thanks @ryanholiday! As a follow up, have you found aspects of Stoicism or GrowthHacking that you disagree with? and if so, why?
Ryan Holiday
Stoicism? It's a practical philosophy that's 2,000 years old so I definitely disagree with parts of it. I don't believe in polytheism, I don't believe in sacrifice, I feel that human life has more value, I don't believe in predetermination.
In terms of growth hacking, I've gotten in trouble for complaining that people can get a little too autistic about data and lose sight of the big picture.
Logan Stoneman
Good to hear sacrifice isn't your cup of tea. :) Thanks Ryan.
narek khach
Hey Ryan. I'm a longtime fan of your work, thank you for doing this AMA.
I know you're a massive reader and a massive do'er. How the hell do you prevent burnout?
Thank you.
Ryan Holiday
Exercise is really important to me.
I also have a soon to be wife I spend a lot of time with, and animals too. Here are some tips I put together last week
http://thoughtcatalog.com/ryan-holiday/2015/02/33-ways-to-be-an-insanely-productive-happy-balanced-person/
Stefano Ganddini
Hey Ryan,
I just finished reading your book The Obstacle is The Way. I loved it (and just ordered Growth Hacker Marketing on Amazon).
My question is this: when starting your journey, what one habit contributed most to your success?
I know you attribute much of your success to the practical applications of stoicism, but I’m curious about what specific thing you think has helped you the most in getting from where you started to where you are now?
Ryan Holiday
I would say my success has to do with my hard work and talent. Stoicism is what helped me maintain it and stay sane through it all. Does that make sense?
Stefano Ganddini
That makes sense. I guess I was looking for something more specific, but your answer reminds me of the simplicity of the commencement speech Elon Musk gave at my university last year.
His speech was about working hard, attracting great people, taking risks, etc. After it was over I couldn't help but think, "That's it?" He didn't say anything I hadn't heard before (except this time it was coming from a man who sits on top of two billion dollar companies).
For the most part, I think we all know what we need to do. It's not that complicated. As you say throughout TOITW, it's simple (not easy, but simple).
Ryan Holiday
In terms of specifics, here are some things that helped:
-Actively reach out and build relationships with people you want to be like or compete with. Early on, I would email anyone I thought was doing anything interesting. They didn't know I was 18 years old. They just saw the content of my email. If it was good, I got my foot in the door. If it wasn't they forgot about me.
-The other is find a skill/problem that few people seem to have and master it. As the demand increases for this thing, your value will rise along with it. Don't try to be like everyone else. Be a specialist.
You might like the book Smartcuts by Shane Snow. It's got some really good tactical stuff.
Stefano Ganddini
Thanks for the follow up and the book recommendation, I'm definitely going to check it out.
Bob Hazlett
Full disclosure, I haven't read your Growth Hacker Marketing, but I have read Trust Me I'm Lying and The Obstacle is the Way.
I'm wondering how would you hack the job hunt? What approaches would you apply from your books to get noticed and hired at top companies?
Ryan Holiday
For me: I dropped out of college. Did cool (free) work for unusual/unique people. Jobs came pouring in.
Joe Ferraro
Thanks Ryan. How would you go about marketing and growing an audience for a niche audience podcast? We happen to be a baseball instruction pod, but I would think the principles could help many.
Ryan Holiday
I don't man, podcasts are such a red ocean right now.
Brad Gustafson
Hi Ryan,
Do you attribute any of your success to luck and circumstance? What are your thoughts on these factors vs. your own skills and mindset in regards to how they result in success?
Ryan Holiday
Anyone that doesn't attribute at least part of their success is either lying or being a dick. I definitely think I benefitted from a moment in time. I also worked my ass off to take advantage of it.
Josh Thomas
Hey Ryan! Thanks for doing this AMA.
Here's my question: A lot of growth hacking examples focus on SaaS/eCommerce/Marketplace business models. Little has been written about professional service firms that provide established services (e.g. law firms, IT providers, etc.) in many cases for a regional market (e.g. Austin or "Texas and the surrounding area"). Do you see growth hacking as a viable option for these companies? Anyone you see doing it well?
Ryan Holiday
My company definitely fits in that category. I'm deliberately not trying to scale it and I provide a service. The best marketing hack for a service business is to fucking blow your clients minds. 95% of your business comes from referrals anyway.
One thing I came up with is I don't do any pitching. If you want to talk about working with me, you have to buy an hour of my time. I find this serves both as a revenue stream and a lead qualification device.
Logan Stoneman
Ryan, I loved your advice on how to be a good writer, you have to go do interesting things. http://ryanholiday.net/so-you-want-to-be-a-writer-thats-mistake-1/
A couple follow up questions:
1. What author(s) do you think best live up to this advice?
2. What's next on your list for interesting things to do?
Ryan Holiday
Hmmm, that's a very interesting question. I can usually tell when I think an author wrote a book to get paid or wrote a book to get a speaking gig. When I look at my shelf of all time favorite books, I don't see any of those. I see books that the author was so motivated, compelled even, that they HAD to write it. George Orwell has a line about how writing a book is such an awful, wrenching experience that an author MUST be driven by some demon to get through it. I totally agree with that.
My next book for example is driven by the collapse/fall of a bunch of people I really looked up to and admired for a long time. It's partially motivated by some of the failures and betrayals I've seen in the last few years as well. What gets me up every morning is the desire to communicate and express that to people--to get the load off my chest and out into the world.
In terms of my list, I'm getting married next week so that's fun.
Logan Stoneman
Your answer and Orwell's quote reminds me of Hemmingway's quote: "There is nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed." For the best authors I've read, that urge, that demon is ubiquitous.
And congrats on the marriage and I'm pumped for the upcoming book!
Ryan Holiday
I totally disagree with that quote btw. I think that paints a very inaccurate picture of writing. You sit at a typewriter and WORK.
Logan Stoneman
So "getting the load off your chest and out into the world" is synonymous to "work"?
I can see how Hemingway's first sentence could paint an inaccurate picture. But IMO, maybe for those who don't know how to organically get the load off one's chest writing is work, excruciatingly hard work even. But I definitely see alignments between Hemingway's bleeding and Orwell's destroying of his demons. They seem to be saying writing must be cathartic and necessary (effort just depends on who's behind the typewriter).
But thanks for sharing your opinion - definitely staying in my back pocket for future contemplation.
Ryan Holiday
A load on your chest requires lifting to remove, my friend. The bleeding metaphor is a misguided one. Anyone can bleed. Hemmingway wasn't a bleeder--he was a beautiful and dedicated craftsman. Was his work emotional and authentic? Of course, but one without the other is garbage.
Rezki El Mokaddam
Good day to you Ryan! Thank you for the opportunity.
What Growth Hacking "Method" you think an eCommerce website that is specialized in selling fashion clothes and accessories should use? We're featuring worldwide known brands like Tommy Hilfiger, Calvin Klein, J&J, McGreggor... etc.
Thank you for your time! Hope to hear from ya.
Jordan Sojnocki
Hey Ryan,
Random question. I know that marketing stunts have a huge amount of timing involved in them. I was wondering if you had a story of a stunt you wish you had pulled off but for whatever reason did not?
Ryan Holiday
Totally. I would say that most ideas don't become stunts and most stunts don't end up getting attention. I mean if you really look at my career it's only a 2-3 really big ones. The rest were totally forgettable. So forgettable in fact that it's hard for me to point to one and say: I thought that was going to be huge and it wasn't.
James Donaghy
Your monthly reading list is great Ryan. Some of the most incredible reads imo came from the Holocaust. Whats your favourite Holocaust related book (or books)?
Ryan Holiday
That's a very strange thing to consider a category, but obviously Man's Search for Meaning is one of the best books ever written. The Painted Bird. The Avengers.
James Donaghy
Just started reading Man's Search... today. Primo Levi's 'If this is a Man' is is incredible also. Thanks!
peter premuzic
Have you watched the recent Vice documentary on The Real 'Mad Men'? What do you think of the show Mad Men and Donald Draper?
Ryan Holiday
I have not. Worth watching?
peter premuzic
Pregnant women. Can you please explain your thought process and experience doing marketing for them? I am in charge of marketing for a small company and it is so hard to create messages for a niche I have no idea about. (22-year-old male)
Ryan Holiday
Look at Honest Company. Jessica Alba has done a spectacular job.
My experience is a little limited: http://jezebel.com/5222868/american-apparel-spurts-its-stuff-all-over-pregnant-women
Kendrick Wang
Hi Ryan,
In TMIL you seemed to paint a bleak picture for the future of media, and the spread of information. Since then, have you seen any "bright spots or green sprouts" that would suggest that people are making inroads to a better model for information dissemination?
Ryan Holiday
Almost none.
Amanda Geannacopulos
Hey Ryan! Not sure if you've left or not but figured I would submit a question anyways... Being new to the world of startups, I am finding the biggest road block to test whether or not our marketing efforts are working are the lack of eyes. Of course, our outreach is limited because we don't have the large following that bigger companies do- which makes it tough to compete. Do we need to concentrate our efforts on gaining a following first? Or just thinking outside the box to try marketing tactics that hopefully reach an audience who is not already over-stimulated with other company's content? Thanks!
Ryan Holiday
It really depends on what you're trying to do, doesn't it? Is your company a niche product? A scalable product? A large following is relative depending on what you need and want.
I focus a lot on this in parts 1,2 of Growth Hacker Marketing. Don't let vanity push you to chase everyone--when really you need to be located your early adopters.
Ray Loyd
Hey Ryan,
If you happen to catch my late question:
What type of lifestyle hacks do you use to stay passionate about your current goals as you add on more pursuits? Basically, what is your approach to managing multiple, differentiating big projects?
Thanks!
Ryan Holiday
I actually just did a piece on this http://thoughtcatalog.com/ryan-holiday/2015/02/33-ways-to-be-an-insanely-productive-happy-balanced-person/
Ray Loyd
Thanks, Ryan. This is great. Acknowledging that "hourly rate" and avoiding the noise at the start of the day are simple things that took me awhile to really internalize. The work aversion/addiction relation is such a tough thing to recognize - thanks for these helpful pieces!
Paul DiGiovanni
What are you focusing on next?
Ryan Holiday
New book, and building the marketing company brasscheck.net
Guerric de Ternay
Hi Ryan,
Thanks a lot for answering all of these questions. Your 'overnight' success with GHM is obviously due to years of hard work. I imagine that building a high level network must have helped you.
What would you recommend doing to develop such a network?
You're also a prolific author. Do you have any hacks that help you to focus on writing?
Ryan Holiday
Absolutely the result of a strong network. It took probably 8 years to build? Which is a long time, but not as long as it sounds. It's not as if it took 8 years to start paying ANY dividends, it's that the accelerate the longer the time.
For me, the network was built by a) developing a skill set that was in demand or of use b) offering it and in fact seeking out opportunities to put those skills to work, often for free c) delaying cashing in any favors/needs for as long as possible.
I have a couple pieces on Thought Catalog, but the best piece of writing advice I've ever gotten is: live an interesting life. Writing is easy when you have something to say/share.
Guerric de Ternay
Thanks Ryan! These are two valuable pieces of advice.
It is nice to see how honest you are about how important is your network and the time you spent to build it.
I'm gonna read your advice on writing. What make your books stand out for me are how easy to read they are and your ability to write about interesting topics. I'm gonna try to get inspiration from your genius. ;)
By the way, I just wrote a short article about GHM (which was part of a list for my 1-book-per-week challenge): http://boostcompanies.com/growth-hacker-marketing/
Ekam Singh
Hi Ryan,
Thank you for doing Ama. I've been looking forward to this moment for a while.
What would you recommend for someone starting post university but is curious about many different fields and having a hard time figuring out what direction to go. Is the best way to volunteer or work somewhere or with someone in a related field? If those options are not current ly available are books the next best thing?
Ryan Holiday
I think that's a solid option. I would try to find companies/people/projects who you really want to be a part of and find SOME way to contribute. Maybe that's with an internship, maybe it's a job sweeping the floors. The idea is to get your foot in the door, work on your skills and wait for the opportunity to jump on.
Sujan Patel
Hey Ryan! Thanks for doing an AMA.
How valuable are podcasts at this time? Since Serial, it seems like it's becoming more competitive. How good of a GH are they?
Jason Quey
His response earlier: "I don’t man, podcasts are such a red ocean right now."
I think doing something like what @danmartell is doing on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/user/danvmartell) may have more value as video can double as audio or visual. I've still got much to learn about marketing, but my sense is that videos are also easier to promote than podcasts.
Maybe do both by stripping the video afterward? :)
Jason Quey
I understand that the choices we make influence who we are today.
That said, what would you do different if you started entering into the marketing field today?
Ryan Holiday
I think I'd focus on exactly what I talk about in GHM--on growth instead of branding. It's much easier to sell your skills when there are clearly metrics than when people "really respect your work" or like the press that it's gotten. The expectations are clearer, the value is clearer.
Philip Andersen
I Ryan, I just wanted to say thanks for an excellent book. I am not a marketeer by trade (Developer), but I found your book very entertaining.
What do you feel is the biggest marketing stunt done by someone else?
Ryan Holiday
Check this out. It's pretty genius http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berners_Street_hoax
Yuvrajsinh Vaghela
One more question Ryan,
How do you create a strategy for your goal.
Do you've any basic strategy which you can modify and apply to almost anywhere.?
Arnav Srivastav
Hi Ryan - I admire the fact that you've been able to read so many books at such a young age. I've read quite a few books from your reading list but often fail to reach my goal of '1 book per week'
Could you please give me some tips on increasing my reading stamina. What is the best way to manage content consumption between tech blogs and books you want to read. Some days I spend 5 hours on Tech blogs just reading article after article and then just don't feel like reading anymore that day. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!